Searcharxiv⌕ Search

arXiv · 2609.39487

Hagendorf Orders

Abstract

Call a linear order type $φ$ Hagendorf if it shares two properties with additively indecomposable ordinal numbers without being one itself: $φ$ is strictly indecomposable to the right and whenever $ψ< φ$, then $ψ$ can be embedded into a proper initial segment of $φ$. In the 1970s, J. Hagendorf asked whether such types exist. F. Galvin observed that they must be uncountable, and soon thereafter, J. Larson proved that they cannot be scattered. We provide a simplification of her argument that might give additional insight into the $σ$-scattered case. We then show that consistently Hagendorf types exist and that this holds in many models of set theory, for instance under $\mathsf{BA}$ or $\mathsf{MA}_{\aleph_1}$. In fact, their non-existence has large cardinal strength. Furthermore, we construct real Hagendorf types from $\diamondsuit$ and from $\mathsf{PFA}$. This marks the first progress on this interesting problem since its description by Larson four dozen years ago.

Explore related subjects

Keep this discovery

Explore connections, maps & timelines

BibTeXRIS

Jonathan Schilhan, Thilo Weinert. 2026-09-30. Hagendorf Orders. https://arxiv.org/abs/2609.39487

Cite the original work for its findings. Save a collection to share your selection of sources.

KEEP EXPLORING

Related papers

Higher amalgamation in $\mathrm{ACFA}^{+}$

We show two results on higher amalgamation in the theory $\mathrm{ACFA}^{+}$, the model companion of the theory of difference fields with an additive character (added as a continuous logic predicate) on the fixed field in characteristic 0. On one hand, we show that the non-trivial condition for 3-amalgamation established in a preceding paper is not sufficient for 4-amalgamation. On the other hand, we show that when working over substructures whose $\mathcal{L}_σ$-reduct is a model of $\mathrm{ACFA}$, $n$-amalgamation holds for all $n\geq 3$.

math.LO↗

Some results on NIP groups and their Ellis groups

This paper has several parts. We begin by developing a theory of `piecewise (strong) f-genericity' in NIP groups, where we call a definable set piecewise (strong) f-generic if some union of finitely many translates of it is (strong) f-generic. We show that, in an NIP group, the definable sets that are not piecewise (strong) f-generic form an ideal. Our hope is that the corresponding piecewise (strong) f-generic types can provide a substitute in arbitrary NIP groups for the (strong) f-generic types of definably amenable NIP groups, and in the rest of the paper we give several applications. Two of the applications deal with the Ellis group of an NIP group. Let $T$ be an NIP theory, $G$ a definable group, and $M$ a model. In our first result we show that the size of the Ellis group of $G(M)$ is bounded above by $2^{|T|}$, independent of the choice of $M$, giving a substantial step towards the question of whether the isomorphism type is independent of $M$. In our second result, inspired by a theorem of Hrushovski, we show that, if $T$ and $M$ are countable and the formulas of $T$ have uniformly bounded VC-codensity, then the Ellis group of $G(M)$ has `finite Archimedean rank', ie its connected component is profinite-by-Lie. A crucial tool for us in both results is the recent result of Chernikov-Gannon-Krupiński and Basso-Zucker that the $τ$-topology on the Ellis group is Hausdorff. Finally, we use our techniques to obtain a `local' result valid in arbitrary NIP theories, without the assumption of uniformly bounded VC-codensity: for any `bi-invariant' formula $ϕ(x,y)$, the group $G/G^{00}_ϕ$ has finite Archimedean rank. More precisely, if the VC-codensity of $ϕ(x,y)$ is at most $δ$, then $G/G^{00}_ϕ$ is an inverse limit of compact Lie groups of dimension at most $(4δ)^2$. This connects to, though is different than, a question of Hrushovski.

math.LO↗

Strong failures of club guessing at the successor of a regular cardinal

Starting from a model of $\mathrm{ZFC}$, we force the simultaneous failure of the Very Weak Club Guessing and the $\mho$ principles at $S_κ^{κ^+}$, for any regular cardinal $κ$. Our results are obtained by means of a forcing iteration technique, due to Krueger, that incorporates models as side conditions. At $ω_1$, the failure of these principles is a well-known consequence of $\mathrm{PFA}$.

math.LO↗